(Joe Diorio) So, make all your questions
count, OK? Twenty minutes or so. You get to sit down! I guess, basically, these are all bass players now, right? What do you all study? When you were doing that melody at the end of the last song, what kind of chords were those? The melody at the end? Basically, it’s just a melody against the bass note,
it wasn’t even a chord, it was just unison. Octaves. Octaves, against the bass note, that’s all it was. They sound big because it was in octaves. Just melody against bass note. How did you approach phrasing, when you were starting? Phrasing did you say? I approached it… What did you look into to learn how to do that? Basically, you just listen to lots of different players, let’s say, like, sax players and piano players, see, in the solo department. The way that I approach the bass and soloing really hadn’t hadn't been done, so to say, so, it was, like,
an open field for me. There wasn’t really anybody on the bass to listen to, to take all these adventuresome rides, or whatever you wanna call them.
So, I would…like, piano players, different people
that were really playing out I would just listen to them. Get your phrasing from whatever you heard. It’s sort of hard to explain,
because I never listened to any bass players doin’ that, because they weren’t doin’ it. And the phrasing, there’s different ways that you start off
"a" phrase, as dumb as that sounds. Your approach, where you start off and where you let off, is very important, the beginning and ending.
It’s all important but that’s,
your most important parts, when you start a phrase, what notes you pick, Something that will catch the ear. It’s very basic. And taste, taste just comes with experience,
the more that you do it… You just have to play. Get around. I remember when I was coming up,
we used to just play around all the time. All day, eight hours, just play. Playing different
tunes is practicing, and then, learn how to do it. And, get phrasing from the people you’re playing with,
whatever, phrasing, it’s a personal thing.
Eventually, you should develop your own phrasing. That’s actually a good question, a little hard to answer, but… When you’re playing a line, do you approach it from,
you just hear the chords, and you hear what
you wanna play in your head, are you trying, "well, I’m gonna play this chromatic scale here and a whole tone arpeggio here"? Well, I don’t play too much by patterns like that, by thinking numbers and names so much as… When I hear things, I more or less know when I’m playing, what I’m hearing, that’s actually a thing of getting your ear together, more than anything, getting your ear together to hear, to know, when something comes out, if you’re playing and
all of a sudden, you might be playing, let’s say, you’re playing in the key of E and all of a sudden somebody throws a C chord over it… Your pitch should know that’s a C chord, not have to go fumble, looking for what it is, to play with it. So, I do it mostly by ear.
I might think "ok, that’s this over that", so I know, I can play "this". I might think that for, but I don’t really think, like you say. Maybe when you’re playing changes,
I know there’s a whole system like that. I mostly play melodically I don’t think that much,
with, patterns or anything, jumping in. You’ve been studying the Slonimsky book
for quite a while didn’t you? Yeah, I worked on it, yeah.
When did you first start using his ideas, I mean,
when did you find that you could use it appropriately? I mean all that outside stuff, all that real symmetrical stuff? Well, when I applied it, was, basically, whenever it was, like, diatonic, or stuff like that. You can play in fourths and
you can play in fifths, play melodically, and play within the tonal center,
within conventional. Diatonically, you know what I mean? When it gets too far out, I don’t really dig it that much,
I’ve used it as far as, for, fingering and stuff, learn how to… As a matter of fact, when I first started playing,
I used to write out my own exercises. Before I could even read or before I was even hit the books.
And a lot of that sort of stuff I had already figured out. It’s like computer sort of stuff. It’s good for thinking, good for, Freedom Jazz Dance,
That sort of stuff comes out of there. Eddy Harris used that a lot. I know Joe, Joe Diorio who announced me,
we used to go through that stuff down in Florida. I don’t like it when it gets too atonal though,
you know what I mean, just stays out for staying out. I like it when you can use it melodically. You can use it in thirds and sixes and nines, stuff like that, when it has some melodic content I like it. What would be the best way for a novice soloist
to go about working on a solo, say over a more complex jazz type tune? Practice it, it’s tough man,
as stupid as that sounds.
First learn the bass line and the melody
and then try to work off of that? Learn the changes really well, learn the changes, then learn how to melodically tie up, going from one point, from point A to point B. That’s the main thing, to melodically… I mean, lots of guys can play, and the’ll just play on this chord, then it goes to the next chord, then it goes to the next chord, and all they do is
play a little something in each place. The thing is to be able to tie that stuff up, melodically, be able to weave through there. To know what, there’s different notes,
and they connect through twenty different chords, then use those, certain notes that you can, you know, hone in on, that’ll be there.
If you’re playing in the key of Bb, I mean, you know, Bb, D, G, F, I mean, these notes are going to be
in most every chord you know what I'm saying, basically speaking. So, to use… Know what you’ve got, know what the key
notes are when you’re changing, when it changes. When you’re in the key of Bb and
it goes to an A7, then, you know there is gonna be a big C# in there, so, knowing how
to nail that and not make it sound too weird, in passing, is a very… it takes a long time to get together, I’m still working on it! When you’re doing a tune like Giant Steps,
that’s real, chordally checked across, falls like that, you still thinking
wide variations, you know what I’m saying? I try, man, I just try to get bar to bar and something like that, there’s so many changes, I mean, you try to, of course, it’s tough though.
It’s basically an exercise tune, that’s Chops City! You know, that sort of stuff, I mean, you gotta be ready for it.
It’s hard to play melodically through it, because there’s so… how do you say, mathematics, such as a mathematical tune,
it’s just an augmented thing, that’s what it basically is. So I mean, that is a « pattern » tune, you got that,
you wanna scout to do that. It’s hard, I mean, I played it, I played it once, I played something with a synthesizer, and
I played real melodically and it turned out hip.
I just played it real fast and I didn’t play the, the tune, like, "change change change change". What I did is
I just waited till it got to where it laid on it, Where it goes, like, to Eb, and then, when it goes to the turn-around,
A minor, D7 to G right? So I used that. I basically just played an Eb, G and B. See, I didn’t use all the little changes which of course,
are part of it, it’s just diatonic changes within the thing. They’re just turnarounds, just "II – Vs". So, all I do is play three four bars at a time, and connect
it to that augmented thing. It came out really nice. That way you… but it was long tones,
I had to play across bars, man! Trying to play every bar on it melodically is… Is this on recording, did you record it? I recorded it but it isn’t out. I got it on tape somewhere. It’s hip. Played it on a synthesizer, had all sorts of strange sounds,
it really came out nice.
You know, those changes, stuff that moves that fast, and aren’t patterns, it’s tough. Trane (John Coltrane) did a great job, but he had,
that was what he was doing, and he had that stuff down! The system. Yeah, it works. I heard that you supposedly play, like, drums,
guitar and other instruments, I’m just wondering how much other time you have
to spend working on other instruments? Very little, you know, I wish I had some more. I always suggest, for everybody, all my bass students,
to learn how to play drums and the piano, you know, to have a good knowledge of the rhythm section, it’s very, very important. I mean, extremely important, as a matter of fact. You know, to be able to have stuff in, with the keyboard, you know, it’s just basic,
you know what I mean? I would think every musician, no matter what they play,
know something about drums and piano. I mean, you got to! Do you ever compose on the piano? Lots! Most all the stuff I compose is on piano. It’s the easiest one. What do you think of five string bass? Five string bass? I like it, it’s nice.
It goofs me up, you know, with that extra string, and all. It’s something different. But they’re nice. Somebody‘s got a make a good fifth string though! Nobody really makes one yet, they break, like, a high C? Somebody should make one. They’re good instruments,
I like ‘em. Have you gone through, like, writing slumps? I’m in one right now!
Yeah, that happens all the time. How do you, what do you do to work your way out of it? I go play some basket ball! Just to avoid it, ‘cause it’ll come back.
Or just, you know, just the main thing is just sit down
and try to write something, that’s all you can do, no matter how stupid it sounds. Just sit down and make yourself do it, you know,
just sit down. It’s easier, it becomes easier if you have to come out
with some music, then, you gotta come up with it, you know, no matter
if you like it or not, you gotta come up with something. I think that Jeff Berlin said that you write some pieces
for large numbers of instruments? That's through your playing different instruments
that you’ve been able to do that, or, how did you teach yourself into doing that? I just mainly pay attention, you know, with all the different guys, like, when I was
in different bands coming up, like, I was always playing soul bands,
rhythm and blues bands, and we always had horn players, so,
I just learned how to write for them, and I would write some, I didn’t even know what a note
on a paper was I didn’t know anything, I would just write down : D, E,
you know, like this, and they would just say « hey, you ought to do it like this »
and they’d show me how to do it, and, learn how to transpose for all the different instruments,
it’s really basic.
It’s mainly just getting in there and doin’ it. Playing different instruments does help. I used to play saxophone and I goofed off at all the instruments basically. But, it helps. Writing really helps, ‘cause when you write for all that stuff, you really get to know the instruments better.
I can transpose any instrument immediately, just from writing so much, you know, just from, practice. Since you play around with so many
instrument, why do you choose or prefer the bass ? Well, that was the instrument that I just started off on and that, where I secured a position, you know, like, in a band
for the longest time, I just stayed in it, and, played it, and you know, eventually that became my instrument.
Drums was my first instrument but I broke my arm real bad as a kid, and I couldn’t play them anymore, so I went to the bass.
(-) Fender, yeah. Fender bass. How much reading was involved when playing
with Weather Report? Was there a lot of sight reading involved? It’s happened, well actually, every tune was sight reading. They had transcribed everything down, you had to read it off paper when you play it? Yeah, sure. When we practiced it, and stuff, first, you know, it was all read. When you write, you’re actually sitting down on the piano and doing it, you’re never sitting down just writing notes on paper and then play… I write off the top of my head a lot, with no instrument. …just notes on paper? Yeah, just knowing what it’s gonna sound like and write it down, something might come to you in a car, just write it down. I’ve written several arrangements and scores with no instruments, just write it, ‘cause you know it’s gonna work. Could you give me an example of one? Sophisticated Lady on… which is a really good arrangement
I did on my latest album, Invitation album? I did that sitting in the car, man, with just, with no instrument at all.
It’s a really good arrangement too. Duke Ellington. I just did that, write it out ‘cause I knew it would work, and I wanted to do it. So that also has to do with ear training… Yeah, well, more than ear training, also knowing, things that work, you know, there are certain formulas,
there’s certain ways of orchestrating a chord and you know it’s gonna work, you don’t even have to hear it,
you know, that once the band sits down, I mean, I wrote that out for fifteen horns, man and just in about two hours, the whole tune, and I knew it would work. Just wrote it out: you know what the changes are,
you know how to voice a chord, and do it. It takes a lot of guts to, especially go out without knowing
what it’s gonna sound like at all, not physically hearing it at all, but… It’s not hard, you just gotta do it. Just take the first step. You knock the frets out of your Fender? Do you have to, like, fill them out with something or varnish or sand them? Yeah, I fill them in with "Pettit Polly Poxy", it’s like, plastic wood, that sort of stuff.
Put some of that in there and
sanded it down real good, and then I put, boat epoxy on it, real hard epoxy so that the strings
wouldn’t eat through the neck. There’s a friend of mine in Florida who’s got some new stuff
that’s better than boat epoxy, I don’t know what it is. But boat epoxy, I remember : Pettit Polly Poxy, you get it at marinas. That is the best stuff, ’cause it lets nothing leak through it.
It’s really good. Yeah, playing pumps, did you really listen to bass players, in general, how did you get a good pump feel, I mean, listening to whoever… I just mainly listened to records, you know, all the James Brown stuff, all the stuff that was popular coming up, those were the groove I listened to, mostly stuff from the south. But you never really learned, like, a bass line or nothing,
you just listened… Oh I would, yeah, if I had gigs in R & B. (Alright!)
If I had to learn a tune, I had to learn the tune ! So, you know, you had to learn it! R&B, you know, I’m waiting for and hopefully it’s gonna come back, is what music needs right now, music is, not sounding all that good to me.
We need a little more Rhythm and Blues out there,
get little movement, it’s all too Hi Tech right now. I’d like to hear more some, you know, less Glamour,
listen to some more Funk. How do you approach a groove? Just hit it! Right on it! That’s it, man, there’s only one way to approach a groove,
and that’s just "GET in it!" You know, just don’t hold back. I heard that you went to Japan last year with Gil Evans
and there was another bass player on the gig (Mark Egan). How did that work out with two bass players ? It was fun, I just played more or less,
I was more like a featured soloist.
So I would play, sometimes we played bass lines together,
most of the time, all I did was to play outside stuff. It was fun. It’s probably corny asking you, since your background self stands, but, how do you develop, like, all I do is play bass right now, is there a definite process where I can definitely improve my time, my groove feel? Is there, like, playing with a metronome, playing without it or… Do you know of any way of improving time? Basically, just playing a lot, playing like with people
that got good time, for one.
Really! And if you listen to music, listen to stuff, that has good time,
listen to good time players. There’s lots of musicians, I mean, we all know ‘em, I don’t even have to mention ‘em, that just got phenomenal time, if you’re listening to things with good time, it just webs off. When you’re playing with people, you know, play with people that got good time, go out of your way to play
with players who got time. That way, your time will develop better too, you know, and then, you got to be in it, if you just got bad time,
there’s nothing you can do with it. There are lots of people out there, you probably know a bunch from here in the school, maybe they don’t even play that good at notes, or they don’t play, well, they don’t know the stuff, but if they got good time,
they’re good people to hang around. Especially drummers, as I was saying earlier, you got any drummers, you know, time is the thing.
Just hang around people with good time. There are lots of them around, believe me. They might not be playing all that good, you might have to go in a rock band where the drummer might have phenomenal time,
and he might not be playing anything, but, you get a steady beat. Will you play some more before you leave? On fretless? Yeah, I might play a little bit, a couple of minutes.
(Joe Diorio) "Jeff (Berlin), is next door, he’d love to do a duet…" You mentioned something about a project with Stanley (Clarke), an album… Yeah, we‘ve been working on and off on it. Would you tell us exactly what was on that? Just playing tunes and stuff, it’ll be a surprise when it comes out. It won’t be out for a while, ‘cause we see each other so rarely. Just you and him, other players? No, just bass. Alright! How’s the video doing? I don’t know. Are you getting much into African music? Definitely, I love African music. That’s what you do? I play roots, whatever you call it. Is that just a production thing and you put your name on it ? The video? What about it? I don't know how it's doing. It's like, every six months you find out.
I know it's only been for a few months. And the Bach thing you did on the second album, your solo album, how did you approach something like that? Did you have it in your head and then you just played it,
or did you work it out with on your bass? I definitely worked it out. It took me about ten years
around to play that. For years and years I just practiced that. That was just something I used to, ‘cause it was so hard.
This Bach thing, it was so unbelievable, And it was all « one » notes. There were no chords in it, so, I could apply it to the bass, and it’s just left, it’s a left handed piano, you just play that,
all with your left hand on piano.
I had been practicing it for years with a piano player
I played with when I was a kid. In fact, Joe Diorio used to play with us too. He said "hey this is really great, you should learn this". I tried it and I learned it, on the bass. It’s tough, I was scared to death to play that,
I got through it, I couldn’t believe it. It’s tough, I haven’t played it since then. Do you know of any exercises just to develop your ability to play
chords on the bass? Or did you just kind of jam on it? Definitely! Arpeggios is the best thing, that’s the hardest thing for anybody to really play, I think,
it’s just arpeggios.
On the bass, they’re very hard to play, like piano,
it’s simple, you just… or saxophone is easy, you know, bass and guitar… Just between the right hand and the left hand,
just playing… and plus, landing on the right note, especially on the bass
‘caus we only got four strings, I mean you know, you do a two two octave arpeggio, you gotta move your hand half the neck of the bass,
you know what I mean? It’s tough! I mean, you don’t hit it right every time, I don’t hit it right, if I gotta do five arpeggios in a row, I bet you
I’m gonna mess on two of ‘em! You know, it’s tough! That’s the best way : arpeggios. Getting your hands, you know, in, you know, sort of like, molded into shape. On the Invitation album at the end of Reza, how did you get
that sort of tone on the bass? (-) No, I just threw it on the ground. I just threw it real hard on the ground,
that was the sound it made "Woomb!" That’s for real! That’s great! You’re playing through something right now, what is that effect? Looks like an amplifier, I don’t know! I don’t know, maybe it’s a direct box, it looks like… I don’t know anything about it, I just walked in here.
I haven’t even looked at it yet! Ah, some Peavey amp. Do you use any effect, like er… I used to use an MXR, digital delay, which I did that stuff where I used to have a little groove repeated which was really nice, and I did… I used that for, like a flanger, sort of a thing. Played on the fretless? No, that was on either bass. Just the Fuzz tone that was on my amp, that’s all. What kind of effect did you use on Continuum? Continuum, I played the whole tune note for note twice.
Even the solo, that’s natural phasing. And just two instruments, against, everything. That’s the secret, that’s the whole tune played twice. Note for note. That was a workout! That’s natural phasing, it’s not a Phase Shifter, or any Flanger, or… It really only works on fretless? Well it can work on the fretted too, but it doesn’t have that effect, ‘cause with the fretless, you can bend the tone and you bend
the two tones against each other. So it gets it. "We’d better play…" I’d like to thank the academy. What do you wanna do, man? (Jeff Berlin) "I don’t know, do something quiet…" Next on Patrick Buchmann/Sdinganuff Youtube Channel: Jaco Pastorius HIDDEN TREASURES Episode 5
Jaco Pastorius and Jeff Berlin Bass Duet Please support the channel: Subscribe, hit the bell! Thank you! Jaco Pastorius HIDDEN TREASURES Episode 4/5